--- Richard Fateman <fateman@cs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> If you have a command structure in Mathshield that
> requires no
> learning, that would be interesting; is that the
> point? If it is just something else to learn, why
> would
> fellow students like it any better? Do you have any
> tests to show that it is easier to use?
Not a different command structure - I actually like
the maxima syntax. All I mean is to have the
Mathematica ability of inputing things like integrals
"graphically" (for lack of a better term.) Sorry, I
guess I don't know how to express it more clearly. Or
maybe I'm not thinking about maxima the correct way.
Plus, while my fellow students using it would be nice,
considering most of them use windows anyway the odds
are actually rather low. I just like the illusion of
doing something worthwhile. ;-)
> I believe that Mathematica does not use MathML,
> though
> it is willing to produce it if you wish. There is a
> protocol used for communicating between front and
> back ends of Mathematica (mathtalk?) and there is
> also a protocol with Maple (or used to be... Irena,
> I think), and the commercial Macsyma uses some kind
> of Lisp, plus some signalling mechanism. You have
> no signalling mechanism, and perhaps don't
> understand
> why you need it.
I'm probably missing something there. I was planning
on talking to maxima the way the Symaxx maxima
interface (http://symaxx.sourceforge.net) does - write
the proper instructions to a temp file and then invoke
the command line maxima using the file as the input.
They are using Perl/Tk, and I'm pretty sure that part
of it doesn't depend on Tk. Probably not the best way
to do it, but it's about the simplest and it's been
shown to work. I confess to total ignorance here -
what function does the signaling mechanism serve?
> If you are writing the front end, why not just have
> the front end talk to the back end in something that
> the back end already understands. There are two
> obvious choices: the macsyma command language and
> the underlying lisp.
That's essentially what I had intended to do - the
MathML would only be for the purpose of displaying the
formatted mathematics via the GTK widget. Maxima
itself wouldn't ever get anything from the interface
but it's own syntax, and that's all it would need to
return - I shouldn't have to do anything to maxima
itself at all.
> You are just making more work
> for yourself by having to write a translator into
> mathml and a translator out.
Very true, but I figured that would be less work than
writing my own GTK code from scratch to handle TeX
output. Maybe it wouldn't be - that's a definite
possibility if I find that a MathML <-> maxima perl
script is too much work. Remember, though - the only
real translation would be for a very small subset of
the MathML standard. Fractions, exponentials,
integrals, stuff like that - the rest of the maxima
input/output would be in its original form throughout.
> You are also increasing the bandwidth
> requirements by a factor of 50 or so
> as well as lacking vital communication protocols,
> which you presumably would just make up in some
> non-standard way.
Do you mean communicating between the frontend and
maxima? The only direct communication would be when
the frontend runs maxima on the temp file. Symaxx
functions in this fashion, and I've never had a speed
problem with it. I'm not sure what communication
protocols I would need - perl can just run the maxima
program with the temp file input - the frontend would
use the perl scripts to translate the maxima output
file into display ready content. Unless I'm missing
something shouldn't be too much trouble for shorter
expressions (that is an unexplored point, I grant you
- I have to write the scripts before I can do speed
trials. Still, since it is ascii text manipulation, I
can't imagine it being that slow.)
> You seem to be concerned with perl and tk. Do you
> know lisp? I think your project will require it,
> and you might find that you will not need much else.
I don't know lisp (I would like to learn - that's
another one of those "if I only had time" or rather
"if only my school offered credit for it" things.) If
that's how things shape up I'll give it a try.
> > For example, if I were entering an expression
> > with multiple fractions, exponentials within
> > exponentials, and other such fun complexities, I
> would
> > want to see it displayed in a formatted form in
> order
> > to better keep track of it.
>
> Maxima already does this. Why not ask Maxima to
> send you the formatted expressions.
It can send me back formatted expressions, yes - but I
want to be able to input with formatting as well.
> There is already math display (even conversion into
> TeX) in maxima. Are you going to go through every
> construction in Maxima and convert it into MathML?
> Guess what... not everything in Maxima has a MathML
> encoding. And are you going to convert everything
> in MathML into Maxima? Guess what... some things
> may not be in Maxima.
I'm not hoping to do total conversions or anything
like that - only a few of the common things which can
get messy easily. I may be crazy, but I'm not that
crazy :-)
> I've never seen Lyx.
It's a nice piece of work (IMHO, of course) although
I'm sure it would frustrate any seasoned latex user.
It's great for beginners. (Or at least, it is for
this beginner.)
>No, here's worse... you will
>waste a bunch of your time, do poorly in classes,
drop
>out of school, fail to impress the potential spouse
>of your dreams of the suitability of your genes.
>Disappoint Mom & Dad that they don't have
>grandchildren,
>etc etc. :)
I think I blew my chances of impressing a potential
mate the first time I installed Linux. Power like that
is addictive. :-) All part of being a computer nerd -
or rather, part of becoming one.
> Good luck.
> RJF
Thanks much. Sorry for being the foolhardy newbie
clogging up the list with a lot of wild ideas and
questions. :-)
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